DUST Search - Semi-Solution to "Red-Line Sniping"

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

Lightning xVx wrote:

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

Soraya Xel wrote:

This thread needs to die, there is so much stupid in here.

Redline is not a problem. Sniping is not a problem. Snipers are not a problem.

The map design needs to be adjusted so the high points in the game, which snipers naturally gravitate towards, are not in the redline.

This. Just... this.

If there's a high plateau at the edge of the redline, that means that you need to come out of the redline before you can use your high ground advantage to locate targets below, and also avoids the problem of setting up a high ground position near the redline to wall it in.

Otherwise, having WALLS near the redline - like a walled in facility where the walls ARE the redline, would mean that you can't get yourself into a redline sniping position where you can actually get a clear line of fire, you have to move OUT before it's viable to attack, and the walls also mean it's harder for the enemy team to move in and attack you while you're in the redline.

Then let me ask you this, if this is "Not a problem" why is this one of the contributing factors of this game for it's demise? I even hear it FOR MYSELF what blues say. This isn't about me its about making the game balanced for EVERYONE including this player-base, forgive me for actually squading up with people who are starting to lose interest in a game that is UNFAIR. So your okay with people sitting back in PROTO or Rail Tanks making ISK, boosting their KDR, and completely getting drops on people? Easier said then done why don't you go start a new character, face PROTO players and ATTEMPT to make a valid argument.

For the same reason that peer to peer networking isn't the problem with a lot of games people blame that for.

Also known as Wizard's First Rule.

PEOPLE ARE STUPID.

Lots of people believe something is a problem because SOMETHING ELSE is a problem and the two things are related closely enough to cause confusion. One person - and it only takes one - gives a plausible explanation, OR a reason to worry about something, and everyone follows suit. You hear new people complaining about the redline because THEY'VE heard someone else talking about it, and assumed that person knows what they're talking about. Experienced people know what they're talking about, remember?

Like the terrible way the area of the map around the redline is designed causing problems and being blamed on the redline. Or like client-side hit detection and poorly-optimised netcode being blamed on "peer to peer" networking in games that don't even USE that model (pro-tip: online gaming is NEVER peer to peer, player hosted networking is the model people usually mis-label such). In Armored Core: Verdict Day, free battle mode is player hosted, but the main "world mode" play is actually run on the game servers. People still blame "peer to peer" for any lag-related problems when the real issues are a lack of server maintenance and the fact that some fast builds can move faster than the game's ping tolerances can handle.

If they redesign the areas around the redline like I proposed, and like others have proposed in the past, the problem would go away. The redline wouldn't go away, but it wouldn't be a problem, because IT ISN'T THE PROBLEM.


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Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1761	Posted - 2014.03.10 19:51:00 - [1] - Quote Reposting from the Judge/Bamm thread: Team Centre-of-mass and the Redline It's a simple idea. First the game calculates and tracks the COM(center-of-mass) for your team. The game then checks to see if your team's COM is behind the redline. If team COM is behind the redline, WP and sp are accrued as normal. This would be the situation at match start or if your team was getting pushed back into the redline. If team COM is in front of the redline, then no Warpoints or Skillpoints are accrued in the redline. This includes the 1 skllpoint per second passive sp gain. With the game keeping track of COM you could do other things, like bonus a team for fighting out of the redline. It would also be easy to do something more sophisticated than abruptly switching WP/SP on or off - e.g. WP/SP are derated for mercs in the redline by 'distance of COM from redline', so the further away the fight the less reward the redlind campers get. To me the attraction of this mechanic is that it's very New Eden: it doesn't stop players using the redline tactically if they feel the situation calls for it, but they will be sacrificing WP & skillpoints when they do. On the other hand, it still rewards players trying to continue the fight even after they've been redlined. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1762	Posted - 2014.03.11 02:27:00 - [2] - Quote I really don't like that topography needs to be changed to satisfy the redline. That's the sign of a backasswards mechanic. The redline is forcing conversations about tanks, infantry, range, damage, warpoints, skillpoints, AFK and more. The purpose of the redline is to prevent a team getting hard-spawncamped at their deepest spawn. All we really need is a mechanic that allows a team non-campable spawning in their back quarter of the map. Personally, i want to see mercs making self-guided MMC drops to basically anywhere in their back quarter, and in a sacrificial drop pod that could survive anything other than a direct hit from a levelled forge gun or railgun. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1762	Posted - 2014.03.11 12:57:00 - [3] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Lightning xVx wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: This thread needs to die, there is so much stupid in here. Redline is not a problem. Sniping is not a problem. Snipers are not a problem. The map design needs to be adjusted so the high points in the game, which snipers naturally gravitate towards, are not in the redline. This. Just... this. If there's a high plateau at the edge of the redline, that means that you need to come out of the redline before you can use your high ground advantage to locate targets below, and also avoids the problem of setting up a high ground position near the redline to wall it in. Otherwise, having WALLS near the redline - like a walled in facility where the walls ARE the redline, would mean that you can't get yourself into a redline sniping position where you can actually get a clear line of fire, you have to move OUT before it's viable to attack, and the walls also mean it's harder for the enemy team to move in and attack you while you're in the redline. Then let me ask you this, if this is "Not a problem" why is this one of the contributing factors of this game for it's demise? I even hear it FOR MYSELF what blues say. This isn't about me its about making the game balanced for EVERYONE including this player-base, forgive me for actually squading up with people who are starting to lose interest in a game that is UNFAIR. So your okay with people sitting back in PROTO or Rail Tanks making ISK, boosting their KDR, and completely getting drops on people? Easier said then done why don't you go start a new character, face PROTO players and ATTEMPT to make a valid argument. For the same reason that peer to peer networking isn't the problem with a lot of games people blame that for. Also known as Wizard's First Rule. PEOPLE ARE STUPID. Lots of people believe something is a problem because SOMETHING ELSE is a problem and the two things are related closely enough to cause confusion. One person - and it only takes one - gives a plausible explanation, OR a reason to worry about something, and everyone follows suit. You hear new people complaining about the redline because THEY'VE heard someone else talking about it, and assumed that person knows what they're talking about. Experienced people know what they're talking about, remember? Like the terrible way the area of the map around the redline is designed causing problems and being blamed on the redline. Or like client-side hit detection and poorly-optimised netcode being blamed on "peer to peer" networking in games that don't even USE that model (pro-tip: online gaming is NEVER peer to peer, player hosted networking is the model people usually mis-label such). In Armored Core: Verdict Day, free battle mode is player hosted, but the main "world mode" play is actually run on the game servers. People still blame "peer to peer" for any lag-related problems when the real issues are a lack of server maintenance and the fact that some fast builds can move faster than the game's ping tolerances can handle. If they redesign the areas around the redline like I proposed, and like others have proposed in the past, the problem would go away. The redline wouldn't go away, but it wouldn't be a problem, because IT ISN'T THE PROBLEM. Disagree. I think you're treating the symptom and not the cause. The redline is part of the games ruleset, and in any and all games it is the ruleset that drives player action. The map is not part of the rulset and only affects player behaviour incidentally. Designing maps around redlines means similar topography in all districts, on all of the thousands of terrestrial planets. That's a big price to pay for the sake of the redline, which is an arbitrary and unnatural mechanic. I support SP rollover.